Re: Understanding prophecy, Part 2

From: Allen Roy (
Date: Thu Jul 11 2002 - 03:02:17 EDT

  • Next message: Allen Roy: "Understanding prophecy, part 3 then end"

    From: "Shuan Rose" <>
    > How about a single, intelligent mind living in Maccabean times:)
    > More seriously, Allen, your defense of Daniel, while earnest, detailed and
    > intelligent, seems strained to me. I frankly doubt that if Daniel were a
    > canonical book, that you would resort to these gyrations to defend its
    > historical accuracy. That is the test: If Daniel was simply another
    > book, would you resort to these types of defenses? Would you credit these
    > defenses if someone else advanced them? I think not.

    The Chiasm structure is only one of several other pieces of evidence, which
    altogether point toward there being a real Daniel. Probably the greatest
    evidence for the date of Dainel, is the fulfillment of the prophecies.
    Jesus told his desciples that prophecies prove God is true when they are
    fulfilled. That's the way it is with Daniel.

    I don't see part 3 yet. I wonder what happened to it??


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: []On
    > Behalf Of Allen Roy
    > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:11 AM
    > To:
    > Subject: Understanding prophecy, Part 2
    > As part of the issue of whether Daniel was written by one person or
    > several, some interesting points about the literary structure of Daniel
    > may provide some evidence.
    > As I am certain most everyone on this list knows, Hebrew poetry is
    > composed of chaism of various sorts. Rather than meter and rhyme,
    > Hebrew poetry consists of an assortment of thoughts arranged or
    > juxtaposed with each other in various ways. It is curious that the
    > elements that make up the book of Daniel have been arranged in a double
    > chaism.
    > The following chart illustrates this chaism arrangement. Here are some
    > interesting points.
    > 1. The first chaism is written entirely in Aramaic, the second chaism is
    > written in Hebrew.
    > 2. The first level (A) consists of prophetic sections that deal with
    > the general population of the world. Level B deals with God's people.
    > Level C has to do with human kings. And level D has to do with God's
    > King -- the Messiah.
    > 3. The imagery of the first and last prophetic sections of level A
    > deals with kings -- a metal statue of King Nebuchadnezzer in Daniel 2
    > and the kings of the North and South of Daniel 11-12.
    > 4. The imagery of the two middle prophecies (ch. 7 and 8) consists of
    > an assortment of beasts.
    > 5. The focus of the book is on the prophecy of Level D -- the 70 week
    > prophecy concerning the messiah.
    > Daniel 1
    > Historical Prologue Hebrew
    > A. Daniel 2
    > Kingdom prophecies:
    > Image of a King Aramaic
    > B. Daniel 3
    > Troubles of God's people:
    > Worship image/fiery furnace.
    > C. Daniel 4
    > King's prophecy: Nebuchadnezzar
    > Tree cut down.
    > C'. Daniel 5.
    > King's prophecy: Belashazzar
    > The writing on the wall.
    > B'. Daniel 6
    > Troubles of God's people:
    > Worship king/lion's den.
    > A'. Daniel 7
    > Kingdom prophecies:
    > Beasts
    > A''. Daniel 8
    > Kingdom prophecies:
    > Beasts
    > B''. Daniel 9A
    > Troubles of God's people:
    > Prayer for forgiveness
    > C''. Daniel 9:25
    > Kings prophecy:
    > Decree to construct Jerusalem
    > D. Daniel 9:26
    > Messiah dies alone
    > C'''. Daniel 9:27
    > Kings prophecy:
    > Decree to destroy Jerusalem
    > B'''. Daniel 10
    > Troubles of God's people:
    > Mourning for Temple.
    > A'''. Daniel 11 - 12A
    > Kingdom prophecies:
    > Kings of North and South
    > Daniel 12B
    > Prophetic Epilogue
    > The next chart is a more detailed look at the chaism for level C and D
    > concerning Jerusalem and the Messiah of the 70 week prophecy. It helps
    > clear up who is who in this somewhat complex prophecy.
    > A. Daniel 9:25A
    > Jerusalem construction:
    > Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to
    > restore and rebuild Jerusalem
    > B. Daniel 9:25B
    > Messiah:
    > until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven
    > 'sevens' and sixty-two 'sevens.'
    > C. Daniel 9:25C
    > Jerusalem construction:
    > It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of
    > trouble.
    > D. Daniel 9:26A
    > Messiah:
    > After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off,
    > but not for himself. [margin].
    > C'. Daniel 9:26B
    > Jerusalem destruction:
    > The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and
    > the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until
    > the end, and desolations have been decreed.
    > B'. Daniel 9:27A
    > Messiah:
    > He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven,' but in the
    > middle of that 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
    > A'. Daniel 9:27B
    > Jerusalem destruction:
    > And one who causes desolation will come on the wings of
    > abominations [margin] until the end that is decreed is poured out on
    > him.
    > All this is of importance to the topic of authorship because can such
    > symmetry and complexity be expected from an assortment of unknown,
    > gullible redactors or is it a product of a single, intelligent mind?
    > Allen

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