Re: justified & sinner (Was Re: Inerrancy)

From: george murphy (
Date: Fri Jul 12 2002 - 14:54:38 EDT

  • Next message: Robert Schneider: "Re: Christian? On what basis?"

    "Terry M. Gray" wrote:

    > George,
    > I'm surprised at your identification of the view you outline below
    > with "the Lutheran view" since as far as I can tell it is identical
    > with my view.

             Well, remember that Luther came before Calvin!
             Seriously, I wasn't trying to be exclusive. I was responding
    to Burgy's
    question about what people "from other faith communities" thought about "total
    depravity" &c. I don't think that on this precise topic there are major
    Lutheran-Reformed differences, though of course there are when the
    discussion is
    broadened slightly to predestination & its implications.

    > Total deprativity, to Calvinists, does not mean "that there is
    > absolutely nothiing good about unregenerate humanity at all". We
    > labor to distinguish between the "extent" of depravity (which is
    > total and affects every human faculty) and the "degree" of depravity
    > which is not absolute. Thus no Calvinist theologian that I know of
    > would say that man is as bad as he good be.

             OK, but I was referring to the sense that the phrase may convey to
    non-experts. Lutheran & Reformed ideas about original sin have often
    been seen by
    Roman Catholics as Manichaean - just as, conversely, their ideas have
    often been
    described as semi-Pelagian. & while this is formally untrue, we do need to be
    sensitive to what people actually hear as well as to what we mean to say.

    > Also, with respect to "simul justus et peccator" -- equally part of
    > the Reformed theological tradition and the reason that justification
    > is always the mainspring for sanctification. We never get beyond our
    > need of the merits (both active and passive) of Christ.

             OK, but I think the phrase itself originates with Luther.


    George L. Murphy
    "The Science-Theology Interface"

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Jul 12 2002 - 15:21:14 EDT