messiah! Impact on ID?
>From: Shuan Rose on Monday, July 15, 2002 7:03 AM
>Presumably ID is supposed to be a big tent uniting theists (all of whom
>believe that God is the creator?/designer? against antireligious
>evolutionists, like Dawkins, Dennett, Provine etc. Yet it has not
>that way, with many religious thinkers attacking ID. Why? Are'nt Phillip,
>Jonathon et al. on our side , fighting against the forces of darkness, led
>by the Lord of Hellfire himself, Dawkins? (OK, maybe he isn't THE Lord of
>Hellfire, but IMO he may be one of his minions :-)
>Well, Glenn, George? Do you think you are giving aid and comfort to the
>enemy by "lining up" with , say, Dawkins & Eugene Scott against
>theism like Phillip Johnson and Jonathon Wells.? Even if they are wrong
>about a few technical and theological issues, shouldn't we being lining up
>with them ?
I can't speak for George (nor would he wish me to) but I can say that I am
on no one's 'side' except that of observational truth. That is why a month
or so ago, Dick Fischer made his crack about him saying something and me
correcting it. The problem with Phil et al, is that they don't give a flip
for what the observational facts are. They are propagandists in my view.
And they are propagandists offering something to Christian laity which won't
work anyway even if they are successful. So what if the world is designed
if it means little green bugs from Alpha Centauri were the designers rather
And if anyone thinks I am blindly on this side, then look at
where I supported Gillian Brown's claim against Dawkins. The issue came up
because I reviewed a Answers in Genesis video which showed Dawkings freezing
when asked if he could name a mutation which increased information in the
genome. He sat there looking like an idiot for about 8 sec or so. The guy
on the video asking the question wasn't in the same room with Dawkins so I
thought it was a cut and paste job. Dawkins claimed not to have recalled the
interview, then when he did recall it he said he had gotten mad enought to
through them off premises because he realised they were creationists.
Gillian sent me the original audio of the whole thing and it appeared to be
real and I supported her over Dawkings. Frankly, Dawkin's story didn't
make sense and changed a whole lot. Anyway, I am not on anyone's side.
While I may be wrong in many things, I try to stay on the side of the truth
as God gives me to see that truth even if that truth hurts me.
for lots of creation/evolution information
personal stories of struggle
>From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com]On
>Behalf Of george murphy
>Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:37 PM
>To: Glenn Morton
>Subject: Re: Moon proclaims he is messiah! Impact on ID?
> I sent my earlier post before looking at the item Glenn refers to
>below. Having done so, I can heartily recommend it as the funniest
>news item I've seen in many years. Note especially the following:
> "At the celestial event, Muhammed is said to have led
>while God submitted a letter stating, 'I believe in the True Parents.'"
> Just try to picture it. Words fail me.
>Glenn Morton wrote:
>> In a move which surely must cause a bit of embarrassment for the ID
>> Phil Johnson and other ID members, Rev. Sun Myung Moon has proclaimed
>> Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha - even God - have told him he is now
>> Messiah and King of Kings of all of humanity!'"
>> This may have some impact on the ID movement but to explain why requires
>> some background.
>> Keith Miller, in Dec. 1999 published a note with Jonathan Well's web
>> proclaiming that he was a Moonie. Keith attached a note from Phillip
>> at the bottom. Johnson acknowledges that he knew Wells is a Moonie but
>> frankly expresses a big yawn for that knowledge. I posted a response to
>> Keith's note outlining what I viewed as the ID movement's lack
>> for Scriptural Christianity.
>> I also had been having an e-mail conversations with Paul Nelson just
>> before Keith's note. Paul had already confirmed to me that Wells was a
>> Moonie and a fine fellow. He said that they merely disagreed about
>> I should hope so! But at what point do our attempts to create an
>> become worthless for our faith?
>> I think the question for the evangelical supporters of the ID movement
>> the Discovery Institute is: Should we support someone with views like
>> Will Nelson and colleagues like Steve Meyer, in light of Moon's
>> proclamation that he is the 'King of King for all humanity!" continue to
>> encourage evangelical publishers to publish Well's stuff? Wells who now
>> believe that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah seems to hold values quite at
>> odds with conventional Christianity. It seems to me that ID has become
>> theologically neutral as to be of no value to Christianity.
>> see http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/dmd.htm
>> for lots of creation/evolution information
>> personal stories of struggle
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