RE: Infusion of the soul as a process

From: Glenn Morton (
Date: Wed Jul 24 2002 - 00:08:14 EDT

  • Next message: D. F. Siemens, Jr.: "Re: deception in perception"

    Terry wrote:
    >It may have consequences that are detectable scientifically (a la
    >Glenn's concerns). If this is the case, then it is not too difficult
    >to say that God's timing may be different in your three scenarios.

    Glenn has more concerns. I finally found in my database some stuff I had
    been looking for about embryology which has implications for the soul and
    ensolation. Like that which I put out yesterday, the situations here are
    similar but slightly different.

    Chimeras are the result of the union of two zygotes. Given the normal
    conservative view, each zygote is a human at conception. Yet, what happens
    when two zygotes with two souls fuse to form one individual? Where does the
    other soul go? Which soul dies? Yet with twins, where a single embryo
    splits, no one has problems giving the two embryos two different souls.
    With chimeras, what happens? We must pay attention to the data we see with
    our eyes. And the quote below raises profound questions concerning the
    possibility of making a human/chimp chimera. What would stop such a creature
    from being born and living other than ethics?

            "Charles Boklage believes that most malformed children who
    were born as singletons actually may be the product of twin
    pregnancies. This may also be true of left-handers, who are more
    common among twins. He cites another interesting phenomenon,
    which, although it has rarely been detected, may not be at all
    uncommon. 'It is possible that I am twins. By that I mean that two
    different embryos went together to make one body. We know that
    occasionally happens, but it is almost never detected except in
    the blood banks. I think it is actually much more common than
    that. I can tell you with complete certainty that some of us are
    twins who are walking around in a single body.' Such a creature is
    called a chimera, after they mythological Greek monster that had
    the head of a lion, the body of a goat, and the tail of a serpent.
    Chimeras are easily produced in the laboratory. 'We've had
    thousands of experiments with rats and mice in which we take part
    of a mouse embryo and stick it in a rat embryo,' says Boklage.
    'We've done it between sexes and between species. They never make
    twins. They always fuse into single embryos and come out part rat,
    part mouse, part male, part female, part sheep, part goat. The
    forces involved in embryogenesis simply overpower the differences
    in their origins. I'm sure there are creatures too far apart to
    put together, like a mouse and a chicken. But when these events
    occur in human development, it simply goes on.' Chimeras sometimes
    happen in nature when littermates fuse together. The fact that
    this happens in humans was only discovered when donors in blood
    banks were found to be carrying two different blood types; it
    could mean that fraternal twins merged in the womb. Most human
    chimeras are to some extent hermaphrodites, with ambiguous
    genitalia. Of course, there is no way to discover if identical
    twins have merged, since their genes and blood types are the same.
    In these cases, the twins don't vanish, they amalgamate." [GRM: does the
    zygotic soul split and then fuse again as well?]
            "When an infant twin girl, year and a half old, recently
    appeared in the Department of Paediatrics at the British Columbia
    Children's Hospital in Vancouver suffering from chronic lung
    infections, Judith Hall routinely checked for cystic fibrosis. By
    analyzing the chloride level in her sweat, Dr Hall got a positive
    diagnosis. 'We then decided it was time to check the twin,' says
    Hall. As it happens, when these twins were born their obstetrician
    carefully examined the membranes of the placenta to determine
    their zygosity. There was a single chorionic sac, so the doctor
    assumed that the girls must be identical. And yet, when Hall
    tested the eighteen-month-old twin for cystic fibrosis, there was
    no sigh of the disease. 'We then decided to do blood studies,
    looking for common mutations that occur in cystic fibrosis˜and
    they weren't there in either twin! So we scratched our heads. We
    then decided to take a bit of skin, and when we did that, the kid
    with cystic fibrosis had the common mutations and the other
    didn't.' This was a terrific muddle. The other twin was not even a
    carrier of cystic fibrosis; no evidence of the gene at all. DNA
    tests showed that the girls were not, in fact, MZ twins.
    Apparently they were the result of two separate acts of
    conception, but the zygotes implanted so close to each other in
    the uterus that the placentas fused. Further testing showed that
    the diseased twin was carrying the blood of the healthy twin. They
    had evidently shared the same circulation in the womb, which is
    common among identicals, but rare among fraternals. 'They were two
    separate creatures, but they shared their blood in the placenta at
    such an early age that one twin actually took over for the
    abnormal twin, so its blood was healthy but the rest of its body
    had cystic fibrosis,' says Hall.' That's a chimera.' "Lawrence
    Wright, Twins, (London: Phoenix Books, 1997), p. 82-84

    Where is the soul?
            "If most of the cells of the blastocyst give rise to the
    trophoblast, exactly how many cells actually form the embryo? ONe
    way to answer this question is to produce ALLOPHENIC MICE.
    Allophenic mice are the result of two early-cleavage (usually 4- or
    8-cell) embryos that have been aggregated together to form a
    composite embryo. As shown in Figure 28, the zonae pellucidae of two
    genetically different embryos are removed and the embryos brought
    together to form a common blastocyst. These prepared blastocysts are
    implanted into the uterus of the foster mother. When they are born,
    the allophenic offspring have some cells from each embryo. This is
    readily seen when the aggregated blastomeres come from mouse strains
    that differe in their coat colors."~Scott F. Gilbert, Developmental
    Biology (Sunderland: Sinauer Assoc. Inc., 1991), p. 95

    where is the soul
    The experimental data of Mintz (1970) are that 73 percent of the
    double embryos yield allophenic mice, thus suggesting that three
    blastomeres of the blastocyst produce the entire embryo. Markert and
    Petters (1978) have hown that three early 8-cell embryos can unite to
    form a common compacted morula and that the resulting mouse can hav
    the coat colors of the three different strains. Therefore, while i
    is not certain that three is the absolute number of blastomeres tha
    form the embryo, we can be fairly certain that the number is not
    much greater and that most of the cells of the blastocyst never
    contribute to the adult organism."~Scott F. Gilbert, Developmental
    Biology (Sunderland: Sinauer Assoc. Inc., 1991), p. 95-96


    for lots of creation/evolution information
    personal stories of struggle

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Jul 23 2002 - 17:50:52 EDT