RE: Noahic Covenant

From: Glenn Morton (
Date: Fri Jul 26 2002 - 23:45:39 EDT

  • Next message: Michael Roberts: "Re: The Flood Hoax"

    Dick, I liked your story, doesn't apply, though.

    Dick Fischer wrote on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:27 PM

    >Glenn, you have repeatedly objected as to how Noah's boat got from
    >Shuruppak in southern Mesopotamia to the mountains (hills) of Ararat
    >(Urartu, Armenia). The boat had to move north and east against the
    >topography. Yet you seem to act as if this presents no problem at
    >all to a Noah whom you posit lived 5.5 million years ago in the
    >Mediterranean basin when the infilling of the Mediterranean sea could
    >have floated the boat to no higher than sea level.

    Dick that is all I ever said he did float to. If you actually would read
    the book or understand what I am saying, you wouldn't be surprised by this.

    >I would suggest that the biblical landing site named in Genesis
    >presents just as formidable an obstacle to your scenario as it does
    >to mine. You even have an intermediate mountain range between the
    >Mediterranean sea and the mountains (or hills) of Armenia. Punting
    >won't help with that. Notwithstanding I would love to see your
    >treatise on the techniques of Australopithicine shipbuilding. A bit
    >more complicated than bone flutes.

    Logical fallacy of double assumption. You assume I have the piths building
    things I don't. I have said this to you before but you don't listen--never
    do. The first and second appearance of any species in the fossil record is
    associated with long temporal gaps. The oldest known H. erectus is not the
    very oldest H. erectus. Fossils only happen when a species becomes
    widespread enough to have a good chance of being fossilized. Often, early
    in a species existence, that means millions of years between known
    fossilization events. I listed a list of the time between fossilizations
    for many groups in a post to you

    If you understood the fossil record you would understand that a gap of 3
    million years is nothing when it comes to the time between fossilization
    events for rare species. H. erectus was not created 2 million years ago, he
    was on earth before then but left no or only rare fossils. I will post the
    list again to refresh your memory. Try to understand the implications here.
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That too is a logical
    fallacy you are making. Here are the time gaps between the first and second
    fossilizations of various groups.

       caecilians 100 million years
       tetrapod 7 million years
       dinosaur 12 million years
       african turtle 60 myr
       tarsier 30 myr
       birds 8 myr
       coprolites 22 myr
       mushrooms 69 myr
       sharks 25 myr
       vascular plants 20 myr
       tube worms 420 myr
       pollen eating insect 150 myr
       proboscidean 10 myr
       chordate 10 myr
       crayfish 65 myr
       Tribosphenida 25 myr
       birds with beaks 65 myr
       ascomycetous fungi 250 myr
       angiosperm 10 myr
       archaeocete whale 3.5 myr
       therizinosaur 94 myr
       Maldybulakia arthropod 40 myr
       grass 30 myr
       sponges 50 myr
       gorilla 3.5 myr
       Onychophoreans 210 myr

    As to when the oldest boat was, we absolutely know that the oldest boat was
    800,000 years ago, because mankind crossed the ocean at that point. What we
    don't know is how much further back boat building goes. Given the gaps
    above, do you know when the oldest known boat is? about 8,400 years ago.
    For the first 791,000 years of KNOWN boat building experience, there are NO
    fossilized boats. Similarly, just because we don't have a fossil H.
    erectus earlier doesn't mean they didn't exist.

    For documentation on the evidence for ocean crossing see M. J. Morwood, et
    al., "Fission-track ages of Stone
    Tools and Fossils on the East Indonesian Island of Flores," Nature

    Questions for you Dick. Do you still think that the very first H. erectus
    fossil was the very first H. erectus?

    Do you still think I hold that Australopithecus built the boat? (Hint: I

    Do you still think I have the ark crawl to your landing site? (Hint: I

    Do I think you will remember this next time we discuss it? (Hint: I doubt
    it You like your caricature too much)


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