Re: deception in perception

From: Jay Willingham (
Date: Mon Jul 29 2002 - 18:54:22 EDT

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    Why deny the existence of Lucifer? If man can rebel, why not angels?

    Do you deny the existence of angels?

    To expand on Vernon's excellent counter to your position that Lucifer and
    his minions are not discrete entities but are abstract extrapolations of
    human spirits, c.f. our Lord's statement to Peter in

    Luke 22
    31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like
    32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when
    once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

    See also,

    1 Timothy 4:1
    But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from
    the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

    We must be cautious about this line of reasoning. There was a heretical
    sect in the late 1960's and early 1970's called The Process. They believed
    God had forgiven Satan and we were to embrace Satan as good. Their symbol
    was a cross with a dragon entwined around it.

    We do not abdicate our responsibility for accepting Satan's offers when we
    believe he exists.

    Ephesians 6
    16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will
    be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

    Jay Willingham

    Stuart Kirkley had responded:

    Well, sir, I could just as forcefully argue that the 'wiles' of the
    devil are actually to try and get us to believe in personified evil,
    and to regard Satan as an entity, and to also regard God as a person,
    and to further believe that these are two opposing powers which are
    eternally at war with each other. How can that be if God is
    omnipotent? If you allow that God is omnipotent, then how can an
    opposing power ever exist. If you truly understand what omnipotence
    is then how can you allow that there can be an opposing power to God
    ever. It is only temptation which holds up the illusion of an
    opposing power to our minds. This temptation is the carnal mind
    beckoning to us to believe in personified evil and in mortality with
    all it's attendant pleasures and pains, sin, disease and death. This
    is nothing more than an erroneous mental suggestion which can be
    rendered null and void by upholding the first commandment and
    declaring the truth: that God is indeed omnipotent, and t!
        His kingdom is the (only) power, and the (only) glory, forever, and
    to know that God does not lead us into temptation, but delivers us
    from evil. (Yes, that is part of the Lord's prayer).

    To think that there is personified evil and an actual entity called
    Satan is theological superstition which stems from a misinterpretaion
    of the scriptures. Jesus proved Satan to be powerless, he opposed
    evil and defeated it in all it's guises of sin, disease and death.
    The BIble declares that the last enemy to be defeated will be death.
    Did not Jesus triumphantly demonstrate his dominion over this 'last
    enemy'. Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth, and the life' He proved
    that this way, or Christ, is the truth, which, when faithfully
    declared, rebukes the temptation of the devil, or appearance of evil,
    in all it's myriad guises. The BIble further clarifies this erroneous
    suggestion to be the carnal mind, or carnal mindedness. This carnal
    mind is a bald imposition on our God given dominion over all the
    earth, and everything of it. All we need to do to defeat this
    supposed 'carnal mind' is to faithfully declare the truth ourselves,
    the truth of our own God given dominion,!
    d rebuke the offensive lie of mortality, and claim our God given
    heritage as the sons and daughters of God, as Jesus did, as joint
    heirs with CHrist.

    Again, to ascribe reality to evil in any form, is exactly what evil
    wants us to do, to make a reality of it, and especially to personify
    it. IF you believe that Osama bin Laden is truly an evil man, then
    aren't you breaking the very commandments which Christianity is based
    on, to love our enemies, and to learn how to forgive. As soon as you
    personify evil, it is very difficult to forgive. But if you
    de-personify evil, this better allows us to achieve forgiveness. IF
    we know that the misdeed, no matter how abhorrent, stems from the
    mesmerism of the carnal mind, which is not person, but merely
    erroneous mental suggestion, then we can rebuke the error with the
    truth of God's true creation, where everything is seen by Him as
    being very good, and we de-personify the evil and find we are able to
    forgive, and indeed that we are also forgiven. Did not Jesus say that
    this was the penultimate of grace, to forgive others at all times.

    You mention Ephesians 6:12. It is crucially important to this
    argument to note that the verse begins with the phrase, 'For we
    wrestle not against flesh and blood' . Is this not a clear indication
    that the war is not against anything of actual substance, and that
    the 'principalities, powers, the rulers of darkness, and spiritual
    wickedness' are without any real substance, but are mental
    suggestions. Evil can only start as a mental suggestion, or
    temptation, the lure of the carnal mind. If Osama, or Hitler, etc.
    had been rightly guided, would they have done their terrible deeds.
    But they weren't, they listened to the lies of hatred and malice, and
    became fixated, or mesmerised, by these mental assasins, and allowed
    themselves to be governed by them, instead of by good, which is the
    way, the truth and the life, or the kingdom of God.

    Evil acts stem only from acting on the impulses of the carnal mind.
    There is no evil entity which plays with our livesand wars against
    God's righteous kingdom. Recognising that evil has no power, or that
    Satan is not any entity, is truly liberating for the mind and the
    soul. Seeing that evil is nothing more than an erroneous mental
    suggestion, which can be rebuked by the truth, brings all the power
    of truth to bear on the situation, and no lie can withstand the
    faithful application of the truth. This is demonstrable at any time,
    for the truth is always readily available. Did not our master say
    that 'ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free'.
    Personified evil is not the truth, it is a lie, and the father of it,
    and the sooner you rebuke the lie with the truth of God's ever
    present and wholly good creation, as founded in Genesis 1, then the
    sooner you will experience that freedom which Jesus spoke of, and
    discover the 'peace which passeth all understanding. Th!
    is the benefit of forgiveness which Jesus refers to in Matt 6:14, 15.
    YOu will never be able to forgive as long as you believe in
    personified evil. This is the entire thrust of the sermon on the
    mount. It is always good to read that blessed sermon and be refreshed
    with the understanding of meekness before our Lord, the God of Truth
    and Love.

    YOu warn against thinking that Satan is not a personal entity. You
    probaly believe that my position is a position of being gullible and
    slackminded. NOthing could be further than the truth. It is even more
    important that Christians, and all right thinking individuals,
    realise the error of believing in personified evil. This is a
    dangerous mesmeric suggestion which leads us away from the truth of
    being, the truth wherein God sees all HIs creation, and it is very
    good. Remember that this is GOd's kingdom, and in it He sees all,
    for HE is omniscient, and omnipresent. THe BIble declares that He is
    of purer eyes than to behold evil. GOd sees all his creation, and
    behold, it is very good. WHat is it you are seeing? Are you seeing
    GOd's creation, are you allowing God's creation to be seen. IT is
    ever present, and eternal, and real, and there is nothing evil or
    corrupt in it at all. THis is what the spiritual understanding of
    Revelation reveals, where all evil is cast out of hea!
    , or the consciousness of eternal harmony, and the rule of GOd reigns
    supreme and eternal, from Alpha to Omega. There is no evil there and
    all tears are wiped away. THis is a present possibility, not some
    mystical supernatural event.THe way to achieve this state of harmony
    is to follow CHrist, or Truth, and to uphold the commandments,
    beginning with the first, in which we have no other Gods before me
    (Truth), especially the idea of anything evil in His creation. If you
    believe in a personal devil, then you are making an idol, or another
    god, which is clearly a violation of this first, and most important,

    I know that this may be a bit of a leap from traditional scholastic
    theology, and I could expound upon this a great deal further, but I
    will allow you to try to refute my argument first. My argument is
    not with you, but with what I perceive to be an erroneous
    interpretation of scripture, which has hindered the true, practical
    application of scriptural truths for centuries. IT is the crux of the
    debate of the nature of good and evil, and it will not stand the test
    of scientific inquiry. For me, this issue is crucial to an
    enlightened understanding of Christianity and of reality itself, so
    if you want to have a constructive and objective debate about this, I
    am more than glad to engage you.

    Stuart Kirkley

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